Arthuriana - Blog Posts

Let the guy sleep, he deserves it...

this year let's just wake up King Arthur that bitch been sleeping long enough

so don’t get me wrong because a lot of arthurian stuff is super misogynistic. but it’s never really in the damsel in distress way you expect. like the most helpless damsel is lancelot trapped and crying in a tower, completely useless, until this random girl who made him behead a guy in front of her fifty pages ago rolls up with a pickax and rope and is like “ok I’m minecrafting you out of here.” and this works.

From Le Roman des Franceis (AKA Li Romanz des Franceis or Arflet) by André de Coutance, in which the poet is very concerned about the widespread(?) slanderous accusations that King Arthur was killed and replaced as king by a giant cat.

The hero tapestries at the Metropolitan Museum of Art Cloisters in New York City, NY

(Source: Ridder Metter Mouwen)

Oh, come on! Really?!! Guinevere is Kay's niece in this story?!!

Cath Palug's Power Level (& Kay's)

(Source: Pa Gur yv y Porthaur)

Here is the excerpt portraying the hero Cai ap Cynyr, later known as Sir Kay, defeating the dreaded monster, Cath Palug (meaning "Palug's Cat" or "Clawing Cat").

And it's a pretty fearsome beast - over 180 in a single night died to it before Kay came to kill it himself. But reviewing it for a bit I noticed the translation says "Nine Score Chieftains" and I thought "wait does this mean a hundred and eighty war leaders and not simply champions? Does that mean Cath Palug also killed their retinues?".

In the history of Welsh Warfare, the Teulu (meaning "family"), was an important and primary element of Military power, being the personal household guard under the patronage of a Welsh lord. The size of these Teulu warbands, depending on the wealth of a chief, could range anywhere from 50 to 120 warriors. (Llywellyn ap Gryffyd had a teulu of 160 men)

So, I took a close look at the original Welsh text:

...and identified the words being translated are "kinlluc" and "kinran"

Afterwards, I went over to the online Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru/A Dictionary of the Welsh Language (HERE) to clarify their meaning:

So yes, the poem is referring to 180 war leaders getting slaughtered overnight by the monster cat. But, the implication here is that, reasonably and common sense-wise, the chieftains brought along their warbands to hunt a wild animal.

This means, if we choose to interpret the poem saying Cath Palug killed both the chiefs AND their teulu (around say a hundred warriors each), then we are looking at anywhere up to 18,000 warriors and their leaders being massacred by Cath Palug in a single night.

Which gives us a sense of scale of how powerful Cath Palug and its slayer, Sir Kay, must have been.

(Probably still not as powerful as Arthur, given his battle with Twrch Trwyth...)

In La Tavola Ritonda, the Orkneys' loyalties are a bit different: all of them except for Mordred are in on trying to reveal the affair, with Gawain as the leader. They prepare an ambush, which Lancelot escapes after killing Agravaine, Gaheris, and eight unnamed knights.

As would be expected, Gawain furiously tries to avenge his brothers—though it isn't quite the same, since he already had a vendetta against Lancelot and might have duelled him anyway.

Regardless, Gareth, presumably still alive but now unimportant to the narrative, is never heard from again.

In a way, Lancelot saved Gareth (and Gaheris) in killing them, bc we will never know if they would've taken Mordred's side. And I think a lot of people in and out of the narrative would like to assume Gareth wouldn't but we don't know and I genuinely believe it could've gone either way. AND in overshadowing their protest in his own actions, Lancelot obscures a key piece of evidence that Gareth and Gaheris might have gone against Arthur.

As much as I love these boys, the most "important*" thing they do is to die, and become martyrs for Gawain's vengeance against Lancelot. And like many martyrs what they actual thought, believed, or would have done stops mattering when the bodies hit the floor....

*or well, memorable. Most impactful on the main through line, and most incorporated across texts and retellings

What Agravaine and Dinadan have going on in Book 10 Chapter 25 of Malory is unparalleled— (the world's longest post oh my GOD it didn't look so long while I was writing it)

First off, consider that they are both: known for their witty rudeness, their poeticism and cutting jokes and quick tongues ¹, their perceived unknightly values ², their knowledge of the private business of their fellows (to the point of spying on them in secret) ³, and their conscious use of rumor and reputation to influence how others are seen⁴— only, Agravaine is censured for it, and Dinadan is universally beloved at court, except by Agravaine himself ⁵. The heel-turn that happens in Malory with Agravaine & Mordred being suddenly villains happens in one chapter while they’re interacting with Dinadan specifically. It highlights the extent to which your reputation— how the court perceives you— shapes reality for a knight. A knight is only as good as his reputation. The way people speak of a knight is the only reality about that knight… whether or not it’s true. The series of events here is wild imho. Subtler readings of Malory seem few and far between but listen.

The frame of context here needs to start a couple of chapters before, in Chapter 11— Dinadan is traveling with King Mark (reluctantly).

“Right as they stood thus talking together they saw come riding to them over a plain six knights of the court of King Arthur, well armed at all points. And there by their shields Sir Dinadan knew them well. The first was the good knight Sir Uwaine, the son of King Uriens, the second was the noble knight Sir Brandiles, the third was Ozana le Cure Hardy, the fourth was Uwaine les Aventurous, the fifth was Sir Agravaine, the sixth Sir Mordred, brother to Sir Gawaine. When Sir Dinadan had seen these six knights he thought in himself he would bring King Mark by some wile to joust with one of them.”

He pretends they’re enemies and charges toward them, lance out, so Mark will panic and flee, and then—

“So when Sir Dinadan saw King Mark was gone, he set the spear out of the rest, and threw his shield upon his back, and came, riding to the fellowship of the Table Round. And anon Sir Uwaine knew Sir Dinadan, and welcomed him, and so did all his fellowship.”

Absolutely no beef with Agravaine and Mordred here. In fact, as we roll into Chapter 12:

“Will ye do well? said Sir Dinadan: I have told the Cornish knight that here is Sir Launcelot, and the Cornish knight asked me what shield he bare. Truly, I told him that he bare the same shield that Sir Mordred beareth. Will ye do well? said Sir Mordred; I am hurt and may not well bear my shield nor harness, and therefore put my shield and my harness upon Sir Dagonet, and let him set upon the Cornish knight. That shall be done, said Sir Dagonet, by my faith. Then anon was Dagonet armed him in Mordred’s harness and his shield, and he was set on a great horse, and a spear in his hand. Now, said Dagonet, shew me the knight, and I trow I shall bear him down.”

(Mordred is half-dead for like 70% of Arthuriana, poor kid) So they’re friends! More or less, anyway. At the least, they have overlapping friend groups, and, knowing who his options are, Mordred is specifically the one Dinadan chooses to bring into the prank— he didn’t know Dagonet was around, and though he might have known Mordred was too injured to do it himself, the prank still relied on Mordred’s willingness to give up his arms to someone else for the express purpose of scaring King Mark shitless.

But by Chapter 25, though— their next appearance on the page— Dinadan wants nothing to do with them. This is, again, the wrestling heel turn wherein Agravaine and Mordred get the minor-key leitmotif etc, etc. They’re theoretically portrayed negatively here and hereafter, where before they were mostly… doing things like pranking King Mark. There’s a reason in the intervening chapters, but we’ll get to that. Here’s how the chapter opens:

“Now leave we of Sir Lamorak, and speak of Sir Gawaine's brethren, and specially of Sir Agravaine and Sir Mordred. As they rode on their adventures they met with a knight fleeing, sore wounded; and they asked him what tidings. Fair knights, said he, here cometh a knight after me that will slay me. With that came Sir Dinadan riding to them by adventure, but he would promise them no help. But Sir Agravaine and Sir Mordred promised him to rescue him.”

Now there’s an inauspicious start, if you want to say Agravaine and Mordred suck— a stranger, badly wounded, fleeing from someone who wants him dead, and Dinadan says it’s none of his business. The honorable, knightly task of protecting a wounded man asking for aid from a murderous pursuer is taken up by Agravaine and Mordred. Unfortunately for them, this is one of those Breuse Saunce Pité stories where he rides across the scene for no reason except to beat the ever-loving hell out of whatever knight of midrange skill happens to be center stage at the time, for no reason beyond devoted and passionate rat bastardry (Thomas Malory, a knight during the War of the Roses: “don’t you just hate it when that one guy shows up to just make everything suck in your entire province as much as possible with no higher motivation other than YORKISTS GO TO HELL? I know I do! Except when I am that guy, of course!” Thanks Tom.). So he yells his own name whilst obliterating Agravaine and Mordred with utterly unnecessary cruelty, to make sure they know who did it (gee, thanks).

Now, we don’t yet have any cause to think Dinadan and Agravaine & Mordred have had a major falling out— Dinadan has been previously established to not fight when the moon isn’t in the right lunar mansion to make him feel like it today, etc, and he’s abandoned people to handle things for him before without it stemming from ill will, but it does seem to take quite a bit to get him to concede to help— it seems like more than would usually be the case—

“And yet he rode over Agravaine five or six times. When Dinadan saw this, he must needs joust with him for shame.”

Agravaine is on the ground, being trampled over five or six times by a loudly gloating Breuse Saunce Pité, before Dinadan determines it will, in fact, reflect badly on him if he doesn’t do SOMETHING. He unseats Breuse successfully (“with pure strength” okay go off Dinadan. You could’ve lead with that tho.), who then grabs his horse again and skips town without pursuit. Breuse, as he leaves, is described as “a great destroyer of all good knights.” Paragraph end.

Now we get into the meat of this episode, starting with the immediate following sentence.

“Then rode Sir Dinadan unto Sir Mordred and unto Sir Agravaine. Sir knight, said they all, well have ye done, and well have ye revenged us, wherefore we pray you tell us your name. Fair sirs, ye ought to know my name, the which is called Sir Dinadan. When they understood that it was Dinadan they were more wroth than they were before, for they hated him out of measure because of Sir Lamorak. For Dinadan had such a custom that he loved all good knights that were valiant, and he hated all those that were destroyers of good knights. And there were none that hated Dinadan but those that ever were called murderers.”

At a glance, it scans as good sense. But then— why is it that Dinadan’s feelings about them aren’t mentioned, just theirs about him? It seems surprising that they hate him more than he hates them— and Breuse was JUST identified as meeting the precise description of what Dinadan hates, but Dinadan didn’t seem overenthused to act against him. And what’s up with the specific framing of “none that hated Dinadan but those that ever were called murderers”? Not ‘only murderers’? And, more importantly, didn’t this chapter start with “Now we leave of Sir Lamorak”??

Because, of course, Lamorak isn’t dead. He’s fine. The intervening chapters involved Gaheris’s killing of their mother in bed with Lamorak, Gaheris admitting that he and Gawain (specifically and exclusively— where was Agravaine, while we’re at it?) killed Pellinore to avenge their father, and telling Lamorak that it wouldn’t be right to kill him like this so just watch out but he’s not going to touch him right then but like watch out!! Gaheris has issues but that’s okay. Lamorak also threatened him right back with blood feuding, for his part, saying his own father’s death was as yet unavenged on the Orkney clan. (Never 4get that Malory’s Lamorak is offered a blood price by Arthur to mediate the feud and refuses it, saying he’s not done feuding yet. Play stupid games, my guy—)

But this leaves a big ol’ gap in the logic here. Agravaine and Mordred have never murdered anyone. Agravaine and Mordred have never destroyed any good knights. Why do they hate Dinadan so intensely on Lamorak’s account? They hated Lamorak the whole time, and Dinadan was clearly never on their side about it. Why does—

I would say again, “And there were none that hated Dinadan but those that ever were called murderers.” He’s known to be close only with good knights, and he’s befriended Lamorak. He’s known to hate people that act against good knights. And if you dislike him, it reflects badly on your reputation— maybe inherently (if you came into my house and said “hey I hate your cat” I would not like you ever, which is probably how Tristan at least feels) but this is also the guy who wrote that mean song about King Mark to ruin his reputation and humiliate him and had it taught to a bunch of people who were then sent out to perform it across Mark’s lands. With Arthur’s explicit approval, too— which makes it a political act of lowkey espionage, which is wild and very sexy of him (also one of the foundational elements of my ‘Geralt of Rivia is a purposeful adaptation Tristan’ rant but we don’t have time for that right now). He doesn’t have a reputation for gossip, but he’s very clearly not unaware of how influencing people’s reputations works. Everyone loves him, and anyone who hates him is publicly maligned in image as a murderer. Or do people only hate him if he’s maligned them that way? Is that something he does? It would explain why it doesn’t seem to apply to Agravaine and Mordred on a practical level, in spite of their explicit hatred of him.

But he was friends with them! Recently! And they haven’t killed anyone or been implicated in any deaths (Gaheris, as I mentioned, confessed that he and Gawain killed Pellinore to Lamorak, but Agravaine isn’t part of that, and Mordred was like 12 and per Malory in a fishing village in BFE presumably at the time). However— Gaheris certainly has. Lamorak has been telling everyone about Gaheris killing Morgause. Everyone is explicitly talking about it at court.

If Dinadan is prone to that sort of thing— leveraging his influence and significant skill with public opinion against those he thinks have done serious wrong— he’s likely been smearing Gaheris publicly in solidarity with Lamorak.

And, quite frankly, going after Agravaine and Mordred’s brother is the only thing that would make them madder than going after them.

But we left off mid-paragraph there, in fact:

“Then spake the hurt knight that Breuse Saunce Pité had chased, his name was Dalan, and said: If thou be Dinadan thou slewest my father. It may well be so, said Dinadan, but then it was in my defence and at his request. By my head, said Dalan, thou shalt die therefore, and therewith he dressed his spear and his shield. And to make the shorter tale, Sir Dinadan smote him down off his horse, that his neck was nigh broken. And in the same wise he smote Sir Mordred and Sir Agravaine. And after, in the quest of the Sangreal, cowardly and feloniously they slew Dinadan, the which was great damage, for he was a great bourder and a passing good knight.”

Holy shit. What the hell. For one thing that escalated extremely quickly. For another thing all three of these people are half-dead already Jesus Christ everyone chill. But also— The entire idea of Agravaine and Mordred being murderers ties into their blood feud to avenge their father. Malory doesn’t touch on Dinadan’s adjacency to it, but we know his brother Brunor (that Knight of the Hideously Cut Jacket, who I briefly imagine as David Byrne in a great helm whenever I think of him) for his sartorially-signified revenge quest— Dinadan’s father was murdered, which probably has something to do with his hatred of destroyers of good knights/murderers. So it’s wrongfully-slain fathers all the way down, and then this wounded knight— that Dinadan initially refused to aid in escaping being murdered by Breuse— suddenly interjects to accuse Dinadan himself of wrongfully slaying HIS father! We’ve never seen Dalan before and we never see him again, but I think this specific interjection can be read as doing some absolutely insane heavy-lifting for this scene.

It’s not uncommon in medieval writing for a sort of moral predestination to hang over everyone— saying that Agravaine and Mordred hate Dinadan, only murderers hate Dinadan, and then that they go on to murder Dinadan could all be viewed as a fulfillment of the middle statement— they ARE murderers, even if they hadn’t killed anyone yet, so the statement is true! Except for Dalan’s outburst. This guy was badly injured and fleeing from Breuse, knowing he wasn’t strong enough to face him. Dinadan unseated Breuse in front of Dalan, and the guy isn’t getting any less injured— and yet Dalan hates Dinadan so much and holds him so accountable for the same wrongdoing Dinadan himself hates that he challenges him anyway, in spite of being injured, in spite of Dinadan having defeated in a joust someone who had been strong enough to defeat Dalan in the first place. And avenging a wrongful death, as an act, isn’t inherently censured in Malory— Dinadan’s brother does so offscreen, but it’s acknowledged as a noble thing that he succeeds in his quest to avenge his father’s murder. If you challenge someone honestly, even being incorrect about your accusations towards them doesn’t make it dishonorable of you (that’s how half of these idiots make friends, after all). So whether or not he’s wrong in blaming Dinadan for it, he is HARDLY implied to be a murderer— which means that right in between ‘Only people who get called murderers hate Dinadan’ and ‘Agravaine and Mordred DO murder Dinadan later btw’— there’s a brief exchange that establishes that what the narration has presented as a fact— only people who are called murderers hate Dinadan— is NOT TRUE. Dalan hates Dinadan, and isn’t a murderer— in fact, he may think Dinadan is one. What’s been said about Agravaine and Mordred isn’t true— even if it becomes so, it didn’t have to. What does that mean for the rest of— well, the entire narrative? For one thing, we can to some degree tie this disproving back to the lead-in of Dinadan having this particular ‘custom’— it’s not an actual fact, it’s just something presented as fact, believed to be fact— something that affects the realities of a knight’s life and knighthood as if it were fact, even though it isn’t.

Whether or not you take it as authorial intention doesn’t really matter— Malory is SO interesting if you take your cue from this series of escalating sentence-by-sentence underminings (Dinadan won’t help a stranger but Agravaine & Mordred will— but they’re morally corrupt and he isn’t; Breuse is a renowned destroyer of good knights and was announcing his presence like a Pokémon— that’s the exact thing that Dinadan hates most which is the cause of his beef with Agravaine & Mordred, but he didn’t want to get involved in fighting the guy; everyone who hates Dinadan is a morally bad person— except this other guy who’s right here currently too). The narration is NOT objectively giving you the truth— the narration is giving you what is ACCEPTED AS TRUTH by the court, by society at large, what will be remembered, because a knight is only as good, only as strong, only as virtuous, only as accomplished, as the stories told of him— only guilty of the crimes people gossip on, but guilty of the ones believed, whether or not they’re true. The narrative is influenced by what is and isn’t known, by what’s hidden and revealed to the world. It makes for an incredibly fun and good reading of Malory throughout!

And there’s a lot of room to say, too, that it makes Agravaine and Dinadan insane narrative foils, because any which way you think to develop and expand on Agravaine’s motivations and desires in Malory, Dinadan is doing something similar to great affection, approval, and acclaim— where Agravaine receives disapproval, approbation, and… nothing else. Agravaine is “ever open-mouthed”, waiting “every night and day” to root out Lancelot’s secrets— when he succeeds, Arthur blames him after his death for what comes to pass, even though he was right and what he uncovered was true. It’s Dinadan’s “manner to be privy with all good knights”, so he reads Lancelot’s mail while he’s sleeping, and Lancelot is glad of it, and lets him help. Agravaine is manipulative, Dinadan has influence with his friends. Agravaine, who values his honor greatly, is dishonored for it as vengeful and jealous. Dinadan, who is careless of his own honor, never bruises it with anything he does. Agravaine is considered resentful and ungracious to others, Dinadan is a beloved jokester who harangues his friends with affectionate invective to cheer them up.ᵃ Dinadan is what Agravaine isn’t allowed to be— and yet he’s a version of it that Agravaine has no desire to be, someone who doesn’t fit in the knightly mold, who isn’t respected the way he wants to be respected, someone reliant on the aid and influence of friends, someone who laughs first at himself, at his own lack of honor. To be envied and yet also to be disdained, to Agravaine’s sensibilities, and to Dinadan’s there’s nothing that Agravaine would criticize he cares about.

And yet— they were friends, too. And what ruined that friendship may well have been the same desire that killed Agravaine in the end— the desire to see that a position of privilege at court didn’t protect a knight who’d done wrong from the truth being known, or from facing the repercussions of his guilt and shame— only it was Dinadan who was repeating the gossip, Dinadan exposing the wrong, and Dinadan died for it, too, just as much as Agravaine would later. And in both their cases, their claims were never fully proven, except in the acts of their own deaths.

But can you IMAGINE the incredible amount of dirt they must’ve dug up between the two of them, before they both got killed by their shared streak of weird, stubborn justice, one by the other’s hand? Can you imagine how utterly fatally they’d be capable of roasting you into a charcoal brick by their powers combined? Can you imagine how terminally nasty they’d be if they were fighting, and how annoying they’d be if they weren’t and they got in your business? What an insane combination, what a silhouette of deeper characterization in the negative space that isn’t addressed!!ᵇ It has so many potential implications for the narrative overall and their significance in it as arbiters of social thought and public opinion.

¹ ² ³ ⁴ ⁵

1.“no good qualities except his beauty, his chivalry, and his quick tongue”, as the Vulgate describes Agravaine (quotes that made my wife say out loud, “what else is there?!”), plus that one translator’s note about the idiomatic and metaphorical way he speaks— Dinadan is constantly described that way— “Right so came Dinadan, and mocked and japed with King Bagdemagus that all knights laughed at him, for he was a fine japer, and well loving all good knights.” etc etc. he’s a fucking bard who wrote the hardest diss track of all time (see footnote 4). Also sends his gay friend group™️ (Lancelot, Galehault, Dinadan, and Guinevere) into hysterics with his potshots at Lancelot and Galehault at a tournament dinner. More on that later.

2. Agravaine is known for being extremely jealous, petty, a bad sport and a gossip, dishonorable and vengeable— Dinadan ONLY fights when he feels like it… '

“And at the first recounter, said Sir Kay, he smote me down from my horse and hurt me passing sore; and when my fellow, Sir Dinadan, saw me smitten down and hurt he would not revenge me, but fled from me; and thus he departed.” (He’s literally present while Kay is saying this like 🤷‍♂️ ya)

“So on the morn Sir Dinadan rode unto the court of King Arthur; and by the way as he rode he saw where stood an errant knight, and made him ready for to joust. Not so, said Dinadan, for I have no will to joust. With me shall ye joust, said the knight, or that ye pass this way. Whether ask ye jousts, by love or by hate? The knight answered: Wit ye well I ask it for love, and not for hate. It may well be so, said Sir Dinadan, but ye proffer me hard love when ye will joust with me with a sharp spear. But, fair knight, said Sir Dinadan, sith ye will joust with me, meet with me in the court of King Arthur, and there shall I joust with you. Well, said the knight, sith ye will not joust with me, I pray you tell me your name. Sir knight, said he, my name is Sir Dinadan. Ah, said the knight, full well know I you for a good knight and a gentle, and wit you well I love you heartily. Then shall there be no jousts, said Dinadan, betwixt us.” (I just fucking love this exchange. He really said ‘is your challenge from love or from hate? Oh from LOVE? Wow okay well that’s some kinda love coming at me with a LANCE :(‘ like babygirl why are you a knight.)

Also openly refuses to fight or runs away from combat when traveling with Tristan, when traveling with Mark, when traveling alone (the chapter in question, at first) when traveling with Tristan again, etc, and never denies this

Hates when knights fight for women and thinks it’s stupid. “For such a foolish knight as ye are, said Sir Dinadan, I saw but late this day lying by a well, and he fared as he slept; and there he lay like a fool grinning, and would not speak, and his shield lay by him, and his horse stood by him; and well I wot he was a lover. Ah, fair sir, said Sir Tristram are ye not a lover? Mary, fie on that craft! said Sir Dinadan. That is evil said, said Sir Tristram, for a knight may never be of prowess but if he be a lover. It is well said, said Sir Dinadan; now tell me your name, sith ye be a lover, or else I shall do battle with you.” Tristan promptly tells Isolde about this later and she gives him endless shit for it.

His exchange with Isolde abt it is very funny. He’s a fruitcake. “Now I pray you, said La Beale Isoud, tell me will you fight for my love with three knights that do me great wrong? and insomuch as ye be a knight of King Arthur's I require you to do battle for me. Then Sir Dinadan said: I shall say you ye be as fair a lady as ever I saw any, and much fairer than is my lady Queen Guenever, but wit ye well at one word, I will not fight for you with three knights, Jesu defend me. Then Isoud laughed, and had good game at him.” Y’know that song in the Oliver Twist musical where they’re trying to teach Oliver the concept of chivalry? That never happened for Dinadan and now he’s like this.

Lies all the time for no reason? Presumably it’s for The Bit™️ most times bc he LOVES jokes and pranks. Tristan ropes him into lying to Palamedes uhh hang on let me count in my head. Four? At least four times.

Basically Dinadan took a knightly oath the way other people agree to Terms & Conditions. He knows this abt himself. (See footnote 5)

3. Okay we know about Agravaine but UH “And so privily she sent the letter unto Sir Launcelot. And when he wist the intent of the letter he was so wroth that he laid him down on his bed to sleep, whereof Sir Dinadan was ware, for it was his manner to be privy with all good knights. And as Sir Launcelot slept he stole the letter out of his hand, and read it word by word.” DINADAN WHAT THE HELL? Agravaine and Dinadan were out here bumping into each other surveilling Lancelot’s fuckjgn bedroom I GUESS no wonder Agravaine killed Dinadan later awkwarddd

4. Agravaine is “ever open-mouthed” repeating gossip and spreading rumors to put pressure on Lancelot and Guinevere at court before he resorts to telling his uncle; Dinadan is imho implied by this chapter to be part of the reason Agravaine’s reputation fully tanks (also a gossip) but there’s also the lay he writes to humiliate King Mark and teaches to people to perform throughout Cornwall to ruin him: “And when Dinadan understood all, he said: This is my counsel: set you right nought by these threats, for King Mark is so villainous, that by fair speech shall never man get of him. But ye shall see what I shall do; I will make a lay for him, and when it is made I shall make an harper to sing it afore him. So anon he went and made it, and taught it an harper that hight Eliot. And when he could it, he taught it to many harpers. And so by the will of Sir Launcelot, and of Arthur, the harpers went straight into Wales, and into Cornwall, to sing the lay that Sir Dinadan made by King Mark, the which was the worst lay that ever harper sang with harp or with any other instruments.” (“And when Sir Tristram heard it, he said: O Lord Jesu, that Dinadan can make wonderly well and ill, thereas it shall be.”So true man. What a track.)

Also Dinadan once manipulatively provokes, mocks, belittles, and sneers at Tristan to get him really angry, because he’s letting someone else win a tournament and running support, basically— so Dinadan takes it upon himself to talk incredibly mad shit at him until he gets angry enough to stop being helpful and start fighting properly.

5. This is the chapter where we start to hear about the extent of Agravaine’s censure for his perceived dishonorable traits. As for Dinadan:

“and all the court was glad of Sir Dinadan, for he was gentle, wise, and courteous, and a good knight.”

“Sir, said Dinadan, wherefore be ye angry? discover your heart to me: forsooth ye wot well I owe you good will, howbeit I am a poor knight and a servitor unto you and to all good knights. For though I be not of worship myself I love all those that be of worship. It is truth, said Sir Launcelot, ye are a trusty knight, and for great trust I will shew you my counsel.” <— also this is when Lancelot just woke up from his angry nap and Dinadan is just. There. Having read his private secret letter from the Queen. But it’s fine for some reason I fucking guess!! Idk!! Starfucker extraordinaire Sir “Personal Key to Lancelot’s Bedroom” “Doesn’t Fight His Own Battles But His Friends Will For Him <3” Dinadan like. Agravaine experiencing heretofore unknown levels of gay homophobia. And he’s right.

a. Even adaptations love to make Agravaine Experience Homophobia™️ but rarely Dinadan, who habitually “lies with”, and “makes great joy of” in their beds overnight, his personal ranking of the top three strongest knights of the Round Table at any given time (“at any given time” meaning that he promptly does that to Palamedes as he takes spot #3 when Lamorak kicks it— presumably the secret reason he dies on the Grail Quest is bc he needs to get dick on the reg from the strongest knights in the world to survive and Galahad categorically does not fuck. RIP to a legend), loudly disdains romantic relationships with women, and is pranked on the page by Galehault and Lancelot for being unmanly or effete and afraid of women— by being knocked off his horse on the tourney field by Lancelot in a dress, carried off into the woods, stripped to his underoos, tussled into a dress himself, and paraded through the tourney field and then the hall at dinner in it (Always Sunny title card Lancelot Commits a Hate Crime. Wildass anecdote. Bet a night out on the town with Tom Malory was a HOOT. Guinevere canonically laughs so hard at this she falls over.)

b. Anyway this is why they’re an insane and compelling ship also. I rest my case. This is actually also the introductory post to a piece of fanfiction I’ll put somewhere later in which I used a shortened ballade form taking inspiration and structure from The Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedie to write Agravaine and Dinadan having a flyting competition. Y’know, real normal shit.

The sad thing about Les Prophéties is that there is no known English translation (yet). There's this translation into slightly more modern French on Internet Archive, which was found by @liminalpsych, but the scan is pretty low quality, at times illegible (including Sebile-related parts), and not searchable.

It's worlds better than nothing, and you can glean many gems just from the contents and introduction, which are in English. Dinadan finds a prophecy in a graveyard, Lancelot hangs out with Lionel and Bors and rescues Galehaut, there is at least one gryphon and a dragon, Sebile and Morgan have a love/hate relationship, Morgan and Bruce have a surprisingly wholesome friendship and he patches her up after a fight, Percival hangs out with a hermit and has some love affairs, one of the Ladies of the Lake does a lot of stuff, Tristan does something, Gawain is there... It has something for pretty much everyone.

Alas, the days when it can be read in its full glory are yet a dream.

vulgate if you don’t have its essential reading

wackier recommendation Les Prophéties de Merlin it has toxic Morgan Seblie yuri and medieval witch power scaling, also everyone wants to bang old man Merlin very chaotic (warning highly misogynistic even for its time )

Oh I don't have vulgate so I will defo get that!!!!

TOXIC MORGAN SEBILE YURI?! YES PLS why does everybody wanna bang that old dude? Can I buy Les Propheties online translated into English?

Gawain's son Widwilt canonically packs pistols.

if you could give one (1) arthurian character a gun, who would it be and why?

Arthur's different genealogies from the book "Heroes of the Round Table" by Mike Dixon-Kennedy.

Veronica Whall’s stained glass depiction of Galahad ascending, with Bors, the Grail Maiden, and eight angels, from King Arthur’s Great Halls at Tintagel

what do you love most about kay which you would love to see in a story, like what would you find would make a good depiction of sir kay into a great depiction of kay

In order for Kay to be adequately sharp-tongued he needs to be sharp-minded.

Far too many Kays in retellings are just mean or crass in the basest sense. Phobic, cussing, and frankly come off as a dumb bully with no depth. Even when medlit Kay borders on a bully, he’s never stupid. He needs to be clever enough to have a quick clap back, to invent a witty nickname on the spot, call out Gawain or Gareth or Lancelot on their hypocrisy when no one else will.

Unintelligent Kay holds no interest for me and it’s a lazy way to write him that’s become all too common (not on tumblr, thankfully). It started with The Sword in The Stone (1963) movie and it’s gotten worse from there.

Other than that, I want to see Kay resembling his Mabinogion characterization with the powers and stuff. He does have Otherworld powers in the Lavinia Collins books, but then, that requires reading the Lavinia Collins books but I don’t recommend whatsoever. There are many historical fiction examples from Henry Treece or Edward Frankland, but they don’t have magic. I want the magic!

Additionally I want Kay who is both Arthur’s foster brother and his seneschal, simultaneously. This is more common in books, retellings are pretty good about that. Movies are slacking! Only a handful where he gets to be both!!

Lastly I want his close relationship with Bedwyr restored. Again, there are a decent amount of retellings I could point to as examples that do a great job with that. But I want Gawain too! And Lancelot! And Guinevere! And Ragnelle! Even Gareth!! The dream team. Kay can’t just be this outsider with no friends, that’s not true to medlit at all. They love him! Arthur loves him!!!!! SHOW IT TO ME!!!

This type of Kay is definitely here on tumblr. Seems bloggers understand the assignment! I see this Kay frequently in art and stories passed around here and that’s great. I’ve also attempted to include this sort of Kay in my books. But I want even more of him! He is the character ever!!!

@thescreechowl has translated the "König Anteloy", a German Arthuriana from the 13th century, into English. With her permission, I have made a PDF file of her translation for sharing, reading and preservation purposes. Happy New Year's to all!

Read the "König Anteloy" in PDF format here.

Maelgwn is also important in the story of Taliesin, in an incident which doesn't leave him or Taliesin looking great and is Part 2 of my beef with men named Rhun. We do get an impression of Maelgwn as a patron of the arts but not necessarily a discerning one, though it may just be that he didn't have the good fortune to come across as talented a nuisance as Taliesin—he has 24 bards and none of them are very good, or if they are, they can't compare, since no one can. (They end up cursed to say nothing but "blwerm, blwerm" while Taliesin waxes poetic).

Someone once told me that after defecting from Arthur (Cullwch and Olwen plot point), Cai/Sir Kay became a leader in Maelgwn's army, but I am 99% certain there's no source for this and he made it up. All the same, it could be narratively interesting.

Maelgwn Gwynedd

(The lad himself. He looks how I look when confronted with any question at all. An expression of surprise mixed with apprehension. Note the tiny sword and orb.)

Entering the final stretch of 2024 with Arthuriana's favourite 'sodomitical grape' as Gildas called him. Seriously, Gildas has beef with him, almost as much as he has with dubious historical personage, King Arthur.

Not much is known about Maelgwn's reign considering how big of a guy he's become in the Arthurian mythos but what we do know of him is cool!!!

His great-granddad was Cunedda, who was the first king of Gwynedd, and from whom all others were descended. Cunedda had conquered Gwynedd after the fall of Roman Britain. His title, Wledig, is obscure and I won't go into it too much, but Cambrian Chronicles has done a video about it which I will link to at the end! It means 'of a country' but it's more likely it was an expression of some Roman title.

And his great-great-grandad was Edern - yes, the basis of THAT Edern in Welsh mythology - who was a romano-briton. Maelgwn's dad, Cadwallon Lawhir* (long-hand), was *maybe* king but there are also questions about that. Mainly from Gildas. He suggests that his brother, Owain Danwyn (White Tooth), was King and Cadwallon was his right-hand man - which perhaps would fit with him being the guy who drove the last of the Irish from Ynys Môn - and suggests that Maelgwn murdered his uncle to gain the throne. Peter Bartrum also suggests this but does caveat that the term used, 'avunculus' is normally only applied to a maternal uncle.

(Fun fact: Owain Danwyn was the father of St. Seriol who gave his name to Ynys Seriol otherwise referred to as Puffin Island in English. Maelgwn would later be buried here after he died of, well, we'll get to that.)

Regardless of who was and wasn't king, Maelgwn was the first to reap the rewards of his great-granddad's conquest.

He is normally regarded as the House of Aberffraw's founder from which all other kings of that line were descended. (Yes, including Law Lad, Hywel Dda) This would make them one of the oldest royal lineages until the English chopped off the last king of Gwynedd and Wales, Llywelyn Ein Llew Olaf's head. Gwynedd is the territory that they ruled over. Basically near enough to the whole of North Wales. At its biggest, would've stretched from Anglesey to Ceredigion. Maelgwn - like Owain Gwynedd - was referred to as 'Maelgwn Gwynedd' because Maelgwn ap Cadwallon was a v common name at the time and it would be fuckin confusing.)

Now, sorting fact from fiction with Maelgwn is... um, difficult, shall we say. Gildas himself said that Maelgwn killed his uncle as previously mentioned, killed his nephew so he could marry his wife, and killed his wife to ensure that she wouldn't object to her husband sharing her bed with another woman. I'm not going into that because I want to keep it short but IT'S WILD.* What we do know suggests that Maelgwn was a deeply religious man, and I'm not being funny, but Gildas smeared like five kings - including Maelgwn's nephew, Cynlas, otherwise known as Cuneglas.

Anyways, while the seat of Aberffraw was traditionally the village of Aberffraw - as the name suggests - Maelgwn's llys (court) was held in Deganwy and where Llywelyn Fawr would later build another llys many years later. 'It is supposed,' Timothy Venning writes, 'that his fort was 'Dinerth on the Clwyd coast, due to which the owner might have been nicknamed 'Artos.' But there is no clear evidence that he was called that but there is plenty of Arthurian sites in Gwynedd! Also, there's a Dinerth in Llandrillo-yn-Rhos near me, and like I like to think maybe there was a fort there somewhere.

He's also known to have given money to many churches and saints which puts Gildas assertions that he was a bad dude in doubt but, I mean, you can make up your mind. In Historia Brittonum, Nennius, remarks, 'the great king Mailcun reigned among the Britons, i.e., in Gwynedd,' and further adds that Cunedda, Maelgwn's ancestor arrived in Gwynedd 146 years ago and slaughtered the Irish living there. He also appears only once in the Welsh Triads in the 'The Tribal Thrones of the Island of Britain' each ruled by King Arthur. Maelgwn was Arthur's Chief of Elders in Mynwy (St. David's, itself a major religious site both for Celts and Christians.)

Honestly, Maelgwn's intertwining with saints is fascinating. It's known, as I've said previously, that he gave to various churches in Gwynedd, while the Book of Llandaff (written in 1125) says he was a benefactor of the Diocese of Llandaff when that first started. Also, his nephew, St. Seriol's, bestie was St Cybi, otherwise known as the lad who gave his name to the Welsh name for Holyhead, 'Caergybi,' which means Cybi's Fort. Maelgwn was, by all accounts, the one who gave the fort to him!

Now, Historium Brittonum is of further interest to us because it, in Kari Maund's words, 'reflects the 9th-century context in which it was written when the rulers of Gwynedd advanced claims of primacy all over Wales.' It would've been, within the rulers of Gwynedd's interests to present Maelgwn and his pedigree as 'pan-Welsh figures,' and many pedigrees further reflect that. (See, when I said sorting fact from fiction was difficult I meant it!)

HB says: 'These are the names of the sons of Cunedda who numbered nine. Tybion was the first-born who died in the land of Manaw of Gododdin and thus did not come with his father and aforesaid brothers. Merrion his son divided the possessions amongst Tybion's brothers: Oswael the second-born, the third Rhufen, the fourth Dunod, the fifth Ceredig, the sixth Afloeg, the seventh Einion Yrth, the eighth Dogfael, the ninth Edern.' The names of these sons became attached to territories within Gwynedd I.e. Dunoding, Rhufeniog, Ceredigion, and, therefore, the divisions (or Cantrefi) of Gwynedd with them. This is propaganda by other monarchs who wanted to show that the Gwyddelian line were the rightful rulers of Ceredigion but it also shows what a Big Fuckin Deal Cunedda and therefore Maelgwn are both as a historical figure and as a propaganda piece. Timothy Venning also suggests that the 'parcelling out' of Gwynedd to members of Cunedda's family was presented by Nennius as 'justification for its reunification by his patron King Merfyn.' Some even say that Owain Gwynedd (him again!) used the legend to 'provide an earlier precedent for its [Gwynedd's] current division' between his sons.' I'm telling u this cuz a) it's of interest because it shows just how embedded this family are in Welsh mythology and culture. Like u cannot go five fuckin mins without seeing them, and b) Maelgwn comes from a fighting pedigree. (And also because I think this is fun.)

Now, Maelgwn's death is pretty confusing. Reports say he died from the 'Yellow Plague or Justinian's Plague' which had made its way over from Byzantium. My school and grandad both said to me when I was little that Maelgwn died from yellow fever passing through a keyhole and infecting him that way which I think is very scary. I would cry if I was confronted with that. Thank you, Ysgol Nant-y-Coed and Grandad Barry, you gave me nightmares about a yellow fog coming to claim me late at night. That's why I now have to block the keyhole of my room door up with blutac. He was buried off Ynys Seriol so yeah. The throne would eventually pass to Maelgwn's son, Rhun, otherwise known as that 'hot lecher of women' himself.

As for Maelgwn, he's bound up in Arthuriana as are his family. Many kings of his line claimed descent from Arthur further down the line and it's not a stretch to think that maybe that's why he's such a big part of Arthuriana. Also, he's such a cool character in his own right that it would be a disservice not to include him. Edern, Maelgwn's great-grandad, is sometimes said to be Guinevere's lover in Welsh mythology, and that would make him and his line have the genes of the wife defender of Britain and the literal Lad Everybody Gets Their Knickers In A Twist Over, Arthur. It's not a stretch to think that later chronicles went fuckin Mad with this info. I would!

*The video about the term 'Wledig' is here.

YouTube

The Royal Title that No One Can Remember

What makes something untranslatable? How about a royal title, or epithet, given to kings and fictional characters for two centuries... befor

* If you want to learn more about these events can I suggest this web page which explains it far better than I ever could:

https://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id166.html

Tagging people I think might get a kick out of this: @dullyn @gwalch-mei @gawrkin @crwbannwen @believerindaydreams @queer-ragnelle @cesarescabinet

Okay, hwyl fawr! I'll be back next year to chew your ears off about the Mabinogion in the context of ladies or something.

Arthuriana never gets old, and there's always something new to be written and always something which you would not have guessed exists already.

That said, finding an Arthurian poem by Aleister Crowley where Palamedes gives birth to the Questing Beast after killing it, gets pelted with eyeballs, learns music skills equal to Orpheus', rides on an eagle, has a vision of Pan and hears the voice of Christ, becomes a hermit in Finland, and kills his own son out of necessity in the Welsh mountains was not on my bingo card for today.

Arthurian Mirror/Role Reversal AU, where Morgan is the Once and Future Queen, leader of the Dames of the Round Table, who search for the Holy Clau or Holy Rood.

Meanwhile Arthur becomes the Supernatural Raider/Wild Man called "Arthur la Guivre", who terrorizes Morgan's kingdom but ultimately rescues his sister after the final battle, bringing her over to his Otherworldly realm under a Mountain.

Sebile becomes the Sir Kay of this AU.

you seem like the right person to ask about jewish knights and judaism in general in arthurian legend

Hello! Apologies for how long it has taken me to respond to this! Throughout the Middle Ages and the early modern period, there were a number of Arthurian texts written by and for Jewish people in Jewish languages. The one I specialize in is an Old Yiddish text called Vidvilt, which is part of the Fair Unknown tradition and based off an earlier German text called Wigalois. This text was super popular in the Yiddish-speaking world for about three centuries or so and was reworked and reprinted a number of times. I already discussed some of those adaptations a while ago in response to this ask.

Predating Vidvilt, there was a Hebrew Arthurian text written in the 13th century which is now commonly known as Melekh Artus. This was based on Old French sources and tells the story of Arthur's birth and Lancelot's affair with Guinevere before breaking off unfinished. The most common edition of the text used today is the one by Curt Leviant, though I just read a fascinating article in the latest issue of the Journal of the International Arthurian Society calling into question some of his transcription choices and the conclusions he draws in his analysis of the text.

I also recently read that a fragment of an Arthurian text in Judeo-Catalan was recently discovered, but I'm afraid I don't know much about it as yet other than that it's apparently a late medieval adaptation of Jaufre.

Chivalric romances of both Christian and Jewish origin were extremely popular among medieval and early modern Jews in general. There were a number of non-Arthurian knight stories that were very popular as well; for example, the most famous and influential work of early Yiddish literature was a chivalric epic called Bovo d'Antona, and a survey I read of the literature in Jewish households in early modern Italy shows that the most popular non-religious work among Jews at that time was Orlando Furioso.

It is worth noting that, even though some of these texts were written by and for Jews, that doesn't necessarily mean that the characters in them were Jewish. Jewish writers generally tended to modify their Christian source materials by gliding over or obscuring references to religion, rather than depicting Judaism directly (the reasons for this are complex and could constitute a whole paper, so I won't get into it here). That being said, medieval Jewish knights did exist in real life, too! There are a few medieval historians who do research into exactly when, where, and under what circumstances Jews were allowed to bear arms, but it definitely wasn't exclusively a literary thing.

Arthurian Quotes I Love, pt. ?

“The music of the sword of the High-king of the World”. I love that phrase. Given that this is TSotCED, it could be poetic imagery or an actual, magical singing sword, but either way, I think it’s beautiful, and so is Lancelot recognizing Bhalbhuaidh by the sound of a weapon which Arthur lent him for his quest. Here, Galahad/Bhalbhuaidh, who might actually be intended to be Gawain, is not said to be Lancelot’s son and was fostered by Arthur (who is the High-king of the World, not only Britain or Logres). That Arthur raised him and gave him the sword, that Arthur sent Lancelot to lead the search party for his ward, and that Lancelot was immediately able to recognize him by the sound alone says a lot about how close to Arthur both of them are and how they slot into the court in general. You get so much from that one phrase.

The bit at the end about the Knight of the Lantern being able to fly like a bird is only a plus.

New headcanon that Gareth's hair color changed dramatically as he grew up and by the time he sees his older brothers again he resembles a different relative than whoever he used to look most like, so they don't recognize him but he seems eerily familiar to them

Gawain: You know, you remind me of my younger brother... Gareth [mentally]: He recognizes me! Gawain:...Gaheris. Gareth [mentally]: Facepalms

That is very relatable because I did the exact same thing. Here's a partial list of my own awful ideas:

It started with Marianne Le Fay (I didn't like the name Morgan, so I renamed her) being so called because she was friends with fairies in the French Alps, then shifted to her being a changeling child who was raised by fey beings after Uther and the rest of his hunting party was killed while hunting a wild boar in Broceliande. No adequate explanation was given for why a three-year-old princess was taken along to hunt a wild boar.

Camelot was actually named Caramel-Not. Bors told people in the foreign countries he was in while he had amnesia that he was from a camel-lot and it stuck. (Also, Bors converted to Hinduism, regained his memory, and decided never to go back. All this was mentioned offhand--he hadn't lived in Camelot for years and never showed up in the story).

Prior to the start, Mordred somehow drove every human apart from him and Arthur, who he kept mostly unconscious, out of Camelot through wild goose chase quests, falsely tarnished names, and more creative but always nonlethal methods.

Mordred isekai'd Guinevere to a world made of clouds. The first part of the plot was just her trying to get back.

Mordred stuck Agravaine, Gareth, and Gaheris on a boat and set it adrift so that listening to Agravaine singing "The Ballad of the Pickled Cabbage" would eat away at the others' sanity.

Gawain and "Gallahad" were best friends. Gallahad was kind of a rustic himbo, in contrast to Percival, who was older and had found the Grail before he showed up (I actually like the last bit's angst potential).

Lancelot was really evil and in league with Anna (who was evil). Guinevere, Gawain, and Gallahad all hated him.

Mordred was a sorcerer and had a strix named Deluge who wanted to be named Norman as his familiar. (I know it makes no sense but I still have a soft spot for corny socially awkward evil wizard Mordred).

Arthur and Guinevere were going to get their marriage annulled, then eventually remarry, because the marriage was arranged and also because when they first married, Guinevere was under a curse.

The whole thing began with a seventh-grade assignment to write an alliterative paragraph, so a weird number of words in the prologue started with the letter G. Thus, we have Gawain grappling a ghastly green ghoul over a golden grail (not THE Grail, apparently, but that isn't clear until much later) at the very start.

Pendragons could turn into literal dragons. Mordred, as Uther's grandson, could turn into one despite lacking the Pendragon name, since it was genetic, but Guinevere could also turn into one because she was a Pendragon by marriage. (The lore was a bit spotty). The climax of the book was going to be an epic dragon battle between Mordred and Guinevere.

There's a bit more of that sort of thing, but I'll leave it there for now.

so a few years ago, before I realised that there was such a thing as an Arthuriana fandom on Tumblr that I could mine for resources, I decided, in my infinite wisdom, to start writing a novel.

now where this goes off the rails is the fact that I a) did no research and b) had some pretty unusual ideas about the characters I was going to be using. having since found out some actual, concrete information on these characters, I thought it would be fun to go through my old ideas and see how fucking wild they are in comparison to what I now know the characters are actually like.

Kea's list of awful ideas:

morgan le fay was going to be a werewolf

king arthur was going to be colourblind and have a peanut allergy as his only identifying traits

lancelot was going to murder his abusive merchant father by staging a cart crash in the middle of the woods, then stabbing him in the confusion. for plot reasons

Nimue/lady of the lake and Lancelot were going to be adoptive siblings who were raised by the wild hunt (still kinda fuck with the siblings idea tbh)

Kay was going to be Arthur's dog.

Guinevere x Lancelot? nah, Guinevere x Lancelot's sister (also still kinda fuck with this, give that woman some lesbianism she deserves it)

the main villain was going to be some random ass faerie assassin called the Shrike, so called because it skewered knights on trees (I used to listen to far too much hozier, if you couldn't guess)

Arthur, Lancelot and Merlin were going to be in a polyam relationship and Guinevere, Nimue and Morgan were going to be in a polyam relationship, which, if you consider the two pairs of siblings in that collection, means that the family tree of these characters is literally a circle.

the Fae were going to have big fuckass bird wings for no particular reason other than I thought it would be cool

I have so many more of these, if this breaches containment I'll make another

If we go down,

then

we go down

together

Song lyric from "Paris" by the Chainsmokers; paintings by Herbert Draper, John Duncan, John William Waterhouse, N.C. Wyeth, Sidney Meteyard, Edmund Leighton, Rogelio de Egusquiza, N.C. Wyeth, August Spieß, Harry R. Mileham, August Spieß

Happy Halloween to Guinevere's mother's terrifying prophetic ghost

The Adventures of Arthur at the Tarn Wadling (Jessie Weston translation)

I love speculating about medieval Welsh poetry! As a Cauldron Kids enthusiast, I'd like to elaborate a little about the poetic bit with Creirwy and Garwy Hir. Here it is in Welsh and English:

Whether Hywel ab Einion Llygliw (yes, a different Hywel) is drawing a parallel between his feelings for Myfanwy Fychan and Garwy's feelings for Creirwy or whether he's referencing two unconnected characters, one known for being beautiful and the other known for an unhappy love life or just a lot of generalized woes, is kind of ambiguous, so while I would be happy to have more Creirwy lore, unless there's some other source which mentions this, I don't think we can say that it's supposed to mean they were in a relationship for certain. There's also another Creirwy, daughter of Saint Gwen the Triple-Breasted, though I don't think she's as likely to be the one referenced here.

I'd also like to add that one really dubious Wikipedia entry claims Myfanwy married Goronwy ap Tudur Hen. This is a fun tidbit because he's yet another guy named Goronwy, though almost certainly not the "Cad Goddeu" poet's pal Goronwy, and because if it were true, that would make her a direct ancestor of the House of Tudor.

Hello, it's me. I am back again to bore you all to utter DEATH.

Okay, so I was doing some reading in my lil book nook and I came across this poem:

(Sorry it's sideways. I hate it too.)

It's Ode Five by Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd (who is awesome in his own right. Might do a post about him if anybody would like it.) Anyways, there are two (2) things that jumped out straight off that I have highlighted:

1. The reference to Ogrfan Fawr who is Gwenhwyfar's dad. It's super interesting to me that it reads a bit like Hywel (or whoever is narrating the poem) uses Ogrfan to imply that he's being kept apart from his lover. (Presumably the fair - pls remember Gwen is another word for fair, or white, in Welsh - shy girl lady he mentions in the second line.)

Who's got fair in their name? Gwenhwyfar. "Okay, Sarah," I imagine you're saying. "Cool stuff. But what the fuck does this have to do with a twelfth-century poet dude and a fictional queen?"

Ah, okay. WELL. LEMME REFER U TO GARWY HIR:

He's the father of Indeg who is one of Arthur's mistresses, AND lover of Creirwy, daughter of Cerridwen. Now, I find the author's insinuation that the poem is specifically about Garwy Hir to be a bit of a stretch, because why tf is Ogrfan mentioned in the same breath as Garwy? They have little connection to each other in all honesty. (And I have never heard of Ogrfan, Garwy, being Cerridwen being connected.)

Well, there's a Very Prominent Lad who is connected to both of those ladies.

ARTHUR!!!!!

Husband to Gwenhwyfar, lover of Indeg. The dumbass boi himself. (Respectfully. He is just... look, a lot of Welsh sources are mixed about him. Gildas has Proper Beef with Arthur cuz he killed his brother. Also, this is the same man who called Maelgwn Gwynedd, 'a sodomitical grape.' So. He's not fuckin about.)

It sounds like - to me - this Ode could be perceived as a quest - much like his quest to Annwfn (Not outside of Hywel's subject matter. Man LOVED to intertwine war and love. Read his Gorhoffedd. You'll see what I mean.) - that's been forgotten about over the intervening centuries. One that Arthur went on to get Gwenhwyfar from her father's hall. Perhaps this is also - maybe - a far older version of the Gwenhwyfar/Guinevere and Melwas/Melegaunt myth, but idk. I cannot say for certain.

Now. You can think that this is all a bit tenuous. It very much is, I grant you. In 'The Arthur of the Welsh,' O.J. Padel suggests that Hywel is imagining himself as a suitor for Gwenhwyfar's hand (entirely fair. Right there with you, fella. I too would want to be a suitor for Gwenhwyfar.) But I think it makes a little more sense for the Ode to be Arthur.

Also, yes, I admit the reference to Gwenhwyfar is an indirect one, and I am running on 12 cups of coffee, and this didn't go anywhere, but still. It's FUN.

Now, go read about Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, pls!!!!! His dad, Owain Gwynedd, gets compared to Cai, Cynyr, Gwalchmai, and Dillus in an elegy by Cynddelw, while his court at Gwynedd is seen to be like Arthur's at Celli Wig. (Cynddelw did a praise poem about Hywel too, which also contains lots of Arthurian references.)

Palamedes’ family in Arthuriana

Palamedes, oh, Sir Palamedes. We all know this man. Either he’s crying in front of wells or he’s on the hunt for the Questing Beast. The question is: how much do we know about his family? Some of us know that his father’s name is Esclabor and that he has a brother named Safir. In other Arthurian narratives, he has more family. As such, I did a deep dive by researching several different Arthuriana, three from the thirteenth century, one from the fifteen century, two from the sixteenth century and two from the 20th century.

The first one that we’re exploring is “Guiron le Courtois” from the Palamedes romances, written in the 13th century by an unknown author. In the narrative, around the time of the crowning of Arthur as King, the Roman emperor throws a party because his daughter got married. The emperor is brought tributes of different kinds, including people to be his slaves. A young man between 24 to 30 years old called Esclabor, his wife, several of their children (including a two-month-old Palamedes, who is named after his grandfather) and Esclabor’s brother, Arsafar, are brought from Babylon to the Roman emperor (Cadioli & Lecomte, 2021; Löseth, 1890).

It just so turns out that at that exact same moment someone attempts to kill the Roman emperor and Esclabor saves his life. More events happen, but the point is that Esclabor earns his and his family’s freedom. Esclabor asks permission to the emperor for leave so he can through Logres and then disembark at Northumberland. The emperor grants his request with much regret since he has come to consider him as a son. The family arrives safe and sound to their destination. On the way to Logres, they meet King Pellinor who is out on a hunt and he and Arsafar save his life, when two knights try to kill the king. This causes for them to have favor in King Arthur’s court (Cadioli & Lecomte, 2021; Löseth, 1890).

On the other hand, in another version of “Guiron le Courtois”, it is mentioned that Palamedes has a sister named Florine, whose lover, the Knight of the Castle of the Three Roses, died of love for her. He leaves his own eulogy carved in a marble staircase, talking of whose lover he was and for some knight to avenge him (Lathuillère, 1966).

On the other hand, in the Post-Vulgate of the “Lancelot-Grail”, written by several unknown authors in the 13th century, during the Quest for the Holy Grail, Galahad and Bors lodge at Esclabor’s home. Esclabor narrates to them that he is from the area of Galilee and as a young man he decided to travel to Britain to see and test how great the knights of the area were. He arrives during the start of Arthur’s reign. He stays in the court for a bit, everyone assuming he is a Christian. One day, they bring a beautiful young lady, whose father was a giant the knights killed (Asher, 1996).

They tell her that if she becomes a Christian, they’ll give her riches and someone to marry. She refuses, telling them that she would rather die. No one asks for her until Esclabor does to the amazement of Arthur. Arthur asks him what he is going to do with the young lady since she isn’t a Christian. Esclabor proceeds to tell the king that he’s a pagan just like the young woman and that that’s fine by him. It earns him the nickname “the Unknown” since Arthur thought he knew him, but it turns out he didn’t at all (Asher, 1996).

Esclabor and the young lady go on to marry. They have twelve sons, Palamedes being the eldest. One afternoon, during family lunch time, they all hear about the Questing Beast. Esclabor decides to hunt it down, alongside his eleven sons. Palamedes can’t make it because he’s sick at the time. The quest doesn’t well since Palamedes’ eleven younger brothers die at the hand of the Questing Beast, while Esclabor is badly wounded. This makes Palamedes swear that he’ll hunt down the Questing Beast to avenge his brothers (Asher, 1996).

Similarly, the 13th century “Prose Tristan” written by Luce de Gat and Helie de Boron, is in agreement with the Post-Vulgate in mentioning that Palamedes is the son of Esclabor and that he has eleven brothers. Moreover, he uses a black shield and wields two swords, which makes distinguishable (Curtis, 1994).

In contrast, in Thomas Malory’s “Le Morte d’Arthur” from the 15th century, Palamedes is stated to have only two brothers. Their names are Saphir and Segwarides (whose wife Tristan sleeps with, which similar with the Prose Tristan but Segwarides isn't Palamedes' brother in that narrative) (Malory, 2009).

Moreover, in the 16th century Spanish Arthuriana “Tristán de Leonís y el rey don Tristán el joven, su hijo”, Palomades (as Palamedes is called) is mentioned to have two brothers, Garacón and Separ (Safir), which coincides with Malory but the name of one of the brothers is different. In the second part, Palomades is still hung up on Iseo (Isolde) a decade or so later after she died. He sees that Iseo’s daughter of the same name resembles her mother a lot and decides to kidnap her so he can have the chance he didn’t have with her mother. A relative of “Tristán el joven” kills Palomades in order to rescue young Iseo from her captor. Naturally, Palomades’ brother Garacón appears to avenge his brother, and he gets killed (Cuesta Torre, 1997).

Then, comes Palemedes' cousin Salandro to avenge his cousins and he gets killed as well. Afterwards, Salandro's brother Amagrafo comes to avenge his brother and cousins and gets killed too. “Tristán el joven” hangs their shields and arms for exhibition as an example of what happens to those who come fight against him or something like that (Cuesta Torre, 1997).

Earlier in the same narrative, it is mentioned that Palomades is a descendant of Ebalato, whose shield belonged to “Joseph Abarimatía.” Because of the shield’s miraculous properties, Ebalato becomes a Christian. However, he’s in incarcerated for becoming a Christian and he dies in prison. His wife (whose father is called Palomades) gives birth to twins, whom she raises as Christians. However, their descendants return to their ancestors’ religion (Cuesta Torre, 1997).

Ebalato is the Spanish equivalent of Evalach, a companion of Joseph of Arimathea in the Vulgate. He is also called Evalach the Unknown, just like Esclabor is also called the Unknown later in the Post-Vulgate narration (Chase, 1993; Asher, 1996).

In addition, Evalach was gifted by Joseph of Arimathea a shield that belonged to him (Chase, 1993), which is similar to the Spanish narrative. The mention of Evalach in this narrative essentially makes Palamedes distantly related to Lancelot and Galahad since their ancestor Nascien was the brother of Sarrassinte, who was married to Evalach (Chase, 1993). The only thing that differs between narratives is the death of Evalach, since Ebalato dies in prison, while in the Vulgate Evalach dies centuries later after he meets Galahad who gets the shield of his ancestor (Cuesta Torre, 1997; Chase 1993).

Lastly, in the Vulgate, it is mentioned that Segurades has a nephew called Canagues, who was his squire (Carroll, 1993). Meanwhile, in the 16th century Portuguese Arthuriana “Memorial das Proezas da Segunda Tavola Redonda” written by Jorge Ferreira de Vasconcelos, it is mentioned that “Monsolinos de Sulfocia” is the son of Palamedes and that he uses dual swords like his father. Moreover, he has a cousin called “Leonces de Renel”(De Vasconcelos, 1867).

If all these sources are conflated together, it can be thus deduced that:

Esclabor and his wife are parents to twelve sons and one daughter. Out of the twelve sons, only four are mentioned by name which are Palamedes, Safir, Segurades and Garacón. Their daughter is Florine.

Arsafar is Escablor’s younger brother. His sons are named Salandro and Amagrafo.

Palamedes is the eldest son (or the youngest one). He has a son named Monsolinos of Suffolk.

Safir is most likely the father of Canagues, who later becomes his uncle Segurades’ squire. Meanwhile, Leonces de Renel is most likely the son of either Segurades or Garacón.

The name Palamedes is a family name, seeing as there was an ancestor named Palamedes. In turn, Esclabor’s father was named Palamedes, whose grandson was also named Palamedes as well.

Palamedes is a descendant of Evalach and Sarrassinte, sister of Nascien. That makes him a distant relative of Lancelot and Galahad who are descendants of Nascien.

References

Asher, M. (1996). The Post-Vulgate, part II: The Quest for the Holy Grail. In N. J. Lacy (Ed.), Lancelot-Grail: The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation: Vol. V (pp. 110–289). Garland Publishing, Inc.

Cadioli, L., & Lecomte, S. (2021). Il ciclo di Guiron le Courtois. Romanzi in prosa del secolo XIII. Roman de Meliadus. Parte prima. S.I.S.M.E.L. Edizioni Del Galluzzo.

Carroll, C. W. (1993). The History of the Holy Grail. In N. J. Lacy (Ed.), Lancelot-Grail: The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation: Vol. II (pp. 115–238). Garland Publishing, Inc.

Chase, C. J. (1993). The History of the Holy Grail. In N. J. Lacy (Ed.), Lancelot-Grail: The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation: Vol. I (pp. 1–163). Garland Publishing, Inc.

Cuesta Torre, M. L. (1997). Tristán de Leonís y el rey don Tristán el joven, su hijo: (Sevilla, 1534). Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.

Curtis, R. L. (1994). The Romance of Tristan: The Thirteenth-century Old French “prose Tristan.” Oxford University Press.

Ferreira De Vasconcelos, J. (1867). Memorial das Proezas da Segunda Tavola Redonda (M. Bernardes Branco, Ed.; 2nd ed.). Typ. do Panorama.

Lathuillère, R. (1966). Guiron le courtois: Étude de la tradition manuscrite et analyse critique. Librairie Droz.

Löseth, E. (1890). Le roman en prose de Tristan, le roman de Palamède et la compilation de Rusticien de Pise: Analyse critique d’après les manuscrits de Paris (E. Bouillon, Ed.). Macon, Protat Frères, Imprimeurs.

Malory, T. (2009). Sir Thomas Malory’s Morte Darthur: A New Modern English Translation Based on the Winchester Manuscript (D. Armstrong, Ed.). Parlor Press LLC.

Arthurian characters I interpret as acespec:

Galahad, the Grail Heroine, and Bors: They generally have no apparent trouble or qualms with the eternal chastity thing (except Bors when he gets cursed, but he gets cursed).

Brangaine: In La Tavola Ritonda, she tells Gouvernail that she never wants to have sexual relationships, and in a text I haven't yet read or been able to identify, she apparently stops Kahedin from sleeping with her by using a magic pillow to make him fall asleep, a role which is Camille's in Kaherdin and Camille.

Dinadan: In LTR, they call him the Wise Man Who Does Not Love, and while he has a romantic interest in LTR, their relationship isn't sexual. To the best of my knowledge, he has no other romantic interest and no sexual relationship in all of medlit and pretty much always scorns both concepts. Usually aro, demiromantic in one text, and always ace.

Lucan: It's not anything he says or does, but unless you count the actions of Lucano the evil half-giant half-lion in LTR, he doesn't have any romantic and/or sexual relationships in any medlit I know of. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in my mind, he's on the aro and ace spectrums.

Happy Ace Week to all who celebrate!

Edit: I had somehow left out Dinadan, who I originally meant to include a picture of. I guess you could say he's implicit. Truly one of the aroace icons of all time. He ran so Jughead could also run.

The Superpowers of Queen Guinevere

(a compliment for my Superhuman Knights post)

Giantess/Superhuman Strength (and Size) - British Folk Myths/Welsh Lore

[....]

[....]

Sorcery/Prophecy - De Ortuu Waluuanii/Enfances Gauvain

Preternatural Hair - Knight of the Cart

Ageless Beauty - Vulgate Cycle

...so, writers, where is my Muscle Witch Rapunzel-type Queen?

Amusingly, these funfacts give a solid reason why Morgan needs something like the Green Knight to assassinate Guinevere, particularly the giantess thing from Welsh Myth: Morgan doesn't stand a chance against Guinevere face-to-face.

Bonus Attributes:

Wisdom and Graciousness

Conte du Graal/Perceval - Gawain's description

Vulgate Cycle - Merlin's description

Vulgate Cycle - Guinevere being compared to the God-blessed Grail Maiden

The Queen's Knights

(Give Gwen back her warriors!)

A few variants of Guinevere's name and my thoughts on them:

Velivera--sounds like you'd put it in a soap, but still mellifluous.

Jennifer--the name of half the women of my mother's generation; sounds less epic than it might once have because it's used too frequently.

Guanhamara--pretty, if a little difficult; reminds me of the character from Chronicles of the Red King.

Gwenhwyfar--the Welsh option, one of the classics.

Vanora--sounds like a pretty normal fantasy name; does not sound like Guinevere.

Ginevra--also sounds fairly normal; a little more recognizable.

Guendoloena--and her less assuming relative Gwendolen; this is also Merlin's wife's name (Geoffrey of Monmouth thought it was a good wife name, apparently).

Gaynour--I like the sound, but it would be mocked mercilessly in a modern middle school.

Guilalmier--I like it. Not as classic, maybe, but charming enough.

Wenneuereia--"Can you spell that one more time, please?" I had to check Wikipedia for the spelling of this one.

Ntzenebra--from The Old Knight, the only surviving Arthurian romance in Greek. Very cool.

G(ui/we)n(n)(i)ev(i)(e)r(e)--the closest thing we have to a standard formula of the name is this. You can add some letters or you can take away some letters, and the vibes will change, but it will still be the same in essence and pretty recognizable, unlike...

Winlogee--the coup de grâce. My feelings on this one are complicated, but I feel it can speak for itself.

They could have snuck parts of Jaufre into Monty Python and the Holy Grail and no one would have noticed a stylistic difference.

--A wicked knight describing to Jaufre (Griflet) what a knight who touches his lance can do to obtain his mercy as an alternative to being killed after a fight

Wait a minute...

Edward the Third was an Arthuriana nerd who named his son after Sir Lionel, and...

...made up a title for him, which....

...had previously existed in Arthuriana and didn't refer to a place. Coincidence?

Probably.

Well, darn. That would've been very interesting. Then again, maybe the knowledge that Edward III was such a nerd he named his son after Sir Lionel is enough to ask.