Reblog If You're Traumaendo And You Feel Alone In The System Community.

You have more in common than you think. After all, we're all here, aren't we?

Syscourse often creates lines. Endogenic VS Traumagenic. Anti-endo VS Pro-endo. Disordered VS Non-disordered.

But each of these binaries is a spectrum, just as all things are. There's middle grounds, and even in terms of these binary ideas, they are also spectrums in of themselves.

We often push others away due to these binaries, and often feel swells of anger about these binaries. Today, I want to challenge everyone to step back and find the commonalities in what others say.

Remember: there's someone real on the other side of those words. They're not just a cruel comment -- they're a person.

If it’s alright to ask - an argument I often see made by people in syscourse spaces is that “even the DSM doesn’t say DID is caused by childhood trauma” and that the literature around DID doesn’t say it’s caused by childhood trauma. I always want to refute this because I KNOW DID is exclusively caused by childhood trauma, but I feel like I don’t know how.

I’m also not anti-endo at all, I fully believe non-disordered multiplicity exists, I’m just tired of hearing that argument and knowing it’s wrong but not knowing how to refute it.

I also see arguments like “the DID community owes the non-disordered plurals because so much of the early community was MADE BY US!” which really rubs me the wrong way. I feel like there are a billion reasons why disordered multiplicity would have been mistaken as “not caused by trauma” even by trauma survivors themselves back before we had as much info on it as we do now. It feels like such a strange, disingenuous interpretation of the data. I dunno! I’m hoping you could share some of your thoughts on this if you have the spoons.

I get it

The fact is, the DSM DOES say that DID is caused by trauma. There's several pages to the entry that are often ignored that contain a lot more information about the trauma basis of the disorder.

Hell, look at criteria B

DSM 5, not TR, I don't have the TR in front of me, but it's the same

That "and/or" doesn't mean trauma is optional, it means you may or may not remember it

The entry goes on to discuss things that could trigger onset of noticeable symptoms, including a bunch of stuff about having childhood trauma retriggered in adulthood that pretty much make it impossible to deny

The number of research papers and researchers who call DID a childhood trauma disorder is insane, including Spiegel, who played a huge role in writing the DSM's dissociative disorders section

In 2011, he wrote

And now we have brain scans supporting this, the DSM 5 TR has been updated to mention these scans in the DID section

I would suggest reading this post, which contains supporting links that cover the above and that go into GREAT detail about adjacent topics

Even the ICD incorporated the ToSD and its trauma basis into their DID section

As for community history, CDD spaces existed a lot longer than people think!! Our history goes back longer than anyone thinks.

Here's a short deep dive

It's so important that we continue to talk about this history and how and when things happened.

It matters

CDD systems built our own communities first. While plurality has overlapped with some of it, and things like simply plural came from the plural community, it's not like we just didn't have community. It was smaller and quieter, limited by technology of the day, but it's there, and we even had our own version of SP which was literally killed in cold blood by endogenic systems

It's frustrating, keep talking about our history, it's there

I don't think it's pro endo and anti endo

I think it's those who think CDDs are trauma based and those who don't

From there, personal interpretation and nuance is perfectly okay and should even be encouraged, and that's true for both sides

These spaces should never cross or there will be problems

It should be this simple

In looking for more mixed origin specific spaces I created a mixed origin system community. Just a space to hang out and discuss experiences with other mixed origin systems. If you are interested here's a link :)

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Mixed Origin Hangout • Community on Tumblr

A space for mixed origin systems to hang out and discuss their experiences.

so here's our thing, as a traumagenic system, right. for the longest time we thought we *couldn't* be plural because we "were not traumatized" and we only ever heard about DID-style, traumatized-at-5 systems. thing is, our trauma was just under lock and key of a lot of trauma-locked memories. we're completely pro-endo, because relying on diagnostic criteria helps *no one.*

Hey, Mod Quill here.

For a very, very long time, I was convinced I had DID without trauma. I was firmly pro-endo because I didn't have any trauma, so the DID community didn't welcome me. I wasn't like those other systems; I didn't have trauma, I wasn't upset, I never remembered fighting with my parts! Moreover, the endogenic community welcomed me with open arms, telling me over, and over... and over... and over... just how not traumatized I was.

Even after I started to realize I was in an active abuse situation. Even after I started noticing my symptoms more and more. Even after anti-endos had patiently and kindly (I know, insane to think about) explained that I likely just didn't remember my trauma before, and that what I described as clear and blatant symptoms were equally clear and blatant trauma responses.

I was, essentially, kicked out of pro-endo communities, way back when, because I was too traumatized, and too confrontational when people told me all the reasons I couldn't be traumatized -- such as "too rich," "too white," and "but your parents loved you." That last one was almost constant.

And you know what's remarkable?

Trauma is not part of the diagnostic criteria for DID. Is it a requirement? Yes! But it IS NOT part of the criteria.

You know what is?

Alteration of identity, causing marked issues with sense of self, and affecting many aspects of life (like social relationships, cognition, agency, etc)

Amnesia in some regard (inconsistent with normal forgetfulness)

Distress OR Dysfunction (and thank FUCK Mod Dude explained what dysfunction means, if it's hurdles in your path that you've learned to get over, guess what, neurotypicals don't have those at all)

I experienced all of these. Therefore, I have DID.

And therefore, controversially, many endogenic systems have DID. By the diagnostic criteria. If they experience these three things, that's disordered, babey! It doesn't fucking matter what their trauma history is.

The thing is, I have not known any systems personally who do have these things... without also having trauma. And that's because of many, many different things, but the fact of the matter is, in DID, the alters are a trauma response, not just an additional "thing that normally happens" to systems. And I say this as a DID system with mixed-origins.

Knowing this diagnostic criteria helped me so much. It helped me get the help I fucking needed. It helped me understand the hell was happening to me, and why it was so much worse around my (what I later learned were) abusers.

I'm sorry to say this, but comments like yours are one of many, many reasons why I'm no longer comfortable using pro-endo as a label. Too often, in the effort to support endogenic systems, DID systems and what is helpful for many of us gets... discarded. And that's not right.

I'm not saying what you went through was right either. And it sucks that you couldn't find anyone to relate to, or who could give you the proper information you needed. But the fact is, the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-5 is not to blame for that, and saying it "helps no one" is offensive to those of us who would have died without a diagnosis.

The thing to blame for not having the proper information is people spreading misinfo about DID, people spreading misinfo about systemhood in general, and a lack of role models within the community as it is.

We, as systems, need to be more and more vocal about different presentations of systemhood -- especially since the concept of systemhood is now kind of getting more and more public eye on it. And at the end of the day, it doesn't fucking matter if people are traumatized or not! It doesn't matter if people are pro-endo, anti-endo, or not fucking with syscourse. It doesn't matter if people are diagnosed, self-diagnosed, medically recognized, or not fucking with labels. It doesn't matter if someone is ACTUALLY a system or not!

What matters is getting the help we need. What matters is people getting the diagnosis they need, if that's even something they need. What matters is seeing people with life-long trauma disorders learn to thrive and heal and recover, regardless of what recovery might be for them.

Pro-endo doesn't mean discarding the DSM. Or at least, I highly doubt those who use that label mean it that way. And maybe you didn't either, and I'm sorry to have gone off so long. It's just...

I've seen too much anti-medicalism from pro-endos to trust it anymore, especially as someone who has had to deal with... a lot of ableism about my origins.

Good luck out there -- and I hope you get what you need as well. I hope we all do.

Can we stop saying people with covert DID/OSDD or other covert forms of plurality are privileged? Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t understand how suffering in a way that goes unnoticed is more privileged than suffering in a way that’s noticed.

Both have their ups and downs person-to-person. So what makes one more privileged than the other?

This was also my experience. It’s both comforting and depressing to know I wasn’t the only one who went through this.

I'm tired of this narrative that it's just the endogenics or it's just the anti-endos being ableist because it is typically the vocal minorities in BOTH groups who are doing this behavior. I'm going to be talking about my experiences with how both sides hurt me here but this isn't me throwing a pity party or anything just want to draw attention to things.

Starting out in the system community as a trauma formed system I of course initially interacted with CDD spaces which of course led me to interact with a decent number of anti-endos. Unfortunately when I first started discussing my experiences with the disorder which 100% do not fit into the anti-endo box of how a CDD system is supposed to experience their system I immediately got dubbed as an endogenic and got pushed out of CDD spaces over and over.

I was repeatedly the excuse anti-endos would use to say endogenics were invading their spaces and using their terms. They repeatedly acted as if they were better than me because they had trauma because despite the fact that I repeatedly discussed having childhood trauma because they dubbed me as endogenic I therefore could not have experienced any trauma in my life and was therefore lesser than them. I was just that faker destroying the community because they never once sought to understand the trauma basis for my odd presentations.

Of course not being accepted by other CDD systems in the anti-endo community of course I felt more comfortable with the pro-endo community who were accepting of my trauma and my system experiences. The one main thing they did though... was convince me due to how my symptoms presented I couldn't be experiencing distress/disfunction(which I was) because of the symptoms of the disorder and was therefore a non-disordered system. This held me back from seeking care for the disorder for multiple years.

If you are following along you might notice BOTH sides repeatedly told me I did not need treatment for my experiences. Both sides tried to convince me I was healthy and thriving while I was dealing with severe trauma responses that were subtlety destroying my life.

And the people who helped. The people who recognized how my presentation of the disorder was a valid but commonly overlooked one because of how high functioning I present outwardly with the symptoms. Were people who acknowledge the ableism in both sides. Ones that are willing to call it out in both sides. Those are the people in syscourse who weren't ableist towards me.

And this isn't to say everyone on both sides is a monster but to say what both sides promote as what is and isn't a CDD experience ends up being used for ableism by members of that respective side. Both sides struggle to define CDD systems in a way that ACTUALLY defines ALL CDD systems. And there are always going to be CDD systems who are victims of ableism from both sides of syscourse because of it.

anti-endos expect endogenic Systems to produce 137 quadruple-peer-reviewed studies each with N=10,000+ participants in an fMRI scan with a voxel resolution of 1 µm³ showing to within p<0.00000001 that endogenic Systems are real, meanwhile the existence of their disorder is still being attacked by people with impressive credentials

Silent repost…

Though admittedly, it has gotten a lot better since the last time I have been in plural spaces… but there is still room for major improvement.

Blog posts like these still speak to me now as much as they did back then.

i hate the idea of syscourse being CDD systems versus endos because im fucking traumaENDO and i have DID. and i know people like me are forgotten because it makes discourse easier but it doesn't make me and people like me feel any more safe with any of yall. in fact it makes me see yall as less safe in general.

Tbh I feel like the anti->neutral->pro endo pipeline is pretty close to the recovery pipeline, but I don't think syscourse is ready for that conversation yet.