June-sunsets - Dun Dun Duuun

Luther: Dad sent me to the moon!

Ben: That's rough, buddy.

Your response reeks of 'I will twist every sentence into something else'. First of all;

'How nice of you to accuse me of xenophobia because I believe that a book that hasn’t even been published shouldn’t be ridiculized. Very rational.'

I did not accuse you of xenophobia. Where on earth did I accuse you of xenophobia? You read 'you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology' and what you got from it was 'xenophobia'? Are you kidding me? What I wrote is literally what it says on the tin (which is not xenophobia). And OP did not ridiculize anything; they made a humorous speculation on a future book and you couldn't handle it. Very mature.

'If you believe that the concept of ancient greek mythology retellings as a whole is disrespectful, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I just find it completely unnecessary to insult this woman’s intelligence and speak of her as if she’s an idiot to be led by the nose.'

In the conclusion of my 'rambling' I state that this isn't about all retellings being inherently bad:

I believe a good retelling can be done. It's possible. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to find (or, apparently, extremely hard to write). Most myth retelling writers do the same mistake Miller does; looking at ancient myths through a modern lense, and judging them based on that. Then they claim they can 'fix' them (which is another level of insulting) and they end up distorting those myths to the point where they are completely different stories, unrelated to the original source.

Also no one insulted Miller's intelligence? No one called her an idiot. In fact, she might know exactly what she's doing. I just don't agree with it, I think it's wrong and she's being disrespectful to the mythology and the culture it originated from.

(There is a general misconception of Greek culture in general when it comes to Western academic circles. It's frustrating.)

'And how is that her fault? Anybody who buys a retelling and becomes convinced that they are reading the true and original version of the story is an idiot. Madeline Miller’s books are advertised towards adults.'

That's true, anybody who buys a retelling thinks they are reading the true of the story is an idiot. But there's a problem in Miller's attitude towards mythology as well. How is it also not her fault, when she says things like 'the ending of the novel is a huge pushback against mythology' in her interviews? Really, Miller? Are you comparing yourself to Homer? Are you saying your retelling is on a par with this thousands-of-years-old epic? Be for real.

Ultimately, the fact that she's a Classicist means little to me when she characterizes mythological figures -mortals and gods- in a way that reduces them to caricatures; she simplifies them so they can fit the boxes of modern character tropes.

That's when retellings become direspectful. And that's an instance where changing an existing character's personality is bad writing. Especially when this character was originally pretty complex and means something to the people of this culture.

As a Greek person, I have the right to call her out on that.

I didn't accuse you of xenophobia, but I'm pretty sure you accused me of being anti-art. So no, I'm not anti-art. I'm just Greek and irritated with Miller's BS. People are allowed to express criticism on art. All art, including Miller's.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

unpopular opinion but with the new tide of Greek mythology stories and retellings, Greek Cultural Sensitivity Readings are absolutely necessary. We are in 2024, with thousands of fics and retellings out there!! How is this not a thing yet?? There's vast improvement one can achieve by working professionally on their text with a Greek. I've seen it so many times!!

Also, duh, I'm offering the service BUT I want you to know that the situation with the inaccuracies of SERIOUS works is so dire that initially I didn't even do it for money. As a writer I just wanted to... fix things, to set a new standard for writers and the industry that sells us the most heavily Americanized pop-culture material and passes it as "authentic vibes of Greek mythology". (And of course there were writers who wanted to do right by their story and they had reached out to me. So kudos to them as well!)

Okay, but why does Cultural Sensitivity Reading make a vast difference and it's not just smoke and mirrors?

As a Greek, I am tired of well-meaning writers and authors butchering very basic elements of my culture. It's not their fault exactly, since they were raised in another culture with a different perspective. And nobody clued them in on how different Greek culture is from theirs, so writers sometimes assume that their culture is the default and they project that into ancient Greece. (Even published professionals like Madeline Miller have written "UK or US in antiquity" (with a very colonialist flavor) instead of writing "Ancient Greece". (Looking at you, Circe!)

Even writers who researched a lot before coming to me still had a lot of misinformation or wrong information in their text, easily verifiable by the average Greek. Again, not their fault. They can only access certain information, which does not include Greek scholarly work and scientific articles that DO offer valuable context.

Translation, accuracy, and meaning: If you ever wondered what a word means or how to pronounce it, here's your chance! There are Greeks like me who are knowledgeable and have a keen interest in antiquity and they will be able to read and compare ancient texts, and dive deeper into the work of Greek scholars regarding those texts.

If you want to create new words, you can do that as well! (It doesn't always work, but we can try. Greek is a really rich language and has a word about everything) If you use existing words, I can help you separate reality from fantasy in the context of your story.

(Do not assume we Greeks are ignorant of our heritage, or that we don't know how to research! Our archaeology sector is huge and archaeological museums are closer to most of us than your local Target is to you)

I guarantee there are things you never thought about Greece and the Mediterranean - from the ancient to the modern era. Sprinkling elements like phrases, types of interactions, customs, songs, instruments, dances, etc , into your text will make your text absolutely rich in culture.

Names matter!!! The genders of the names matter, diminutives matter (If I see one more "Perse" for Persephone I will claw my eyes out along with a few thousand Greeks), naming traditions matter!!! In many cases you should not even use a diminutive!!

You will be able to write about a foreign culture easily! Because of the continuity of Greek culture, you can even write a few more recent Greek elements to fill in the gaps. I can make sure they are not mismatched, and they will complement your ancient setting. I have observed a few things I didn't know we had since antiquity, but they make sense because our land has certain characteristics.

Non-Greek writers often miss the whole context of Greek culture! Do you know how Greek respect towards deities and parents looks like? What tones we use when we talk to our elders? When to use honorific plural - if your setting is more modernized?

Oh, and please let's avoid caricatures when describing Greeks?? (even fantasy Greeks) There can be heavy exotisation and odd descriptions of Greeks, as if we are another species. Even in published works. For many western writers it's difficult to catch, unfortunately.

The whole process is actually way easier than you think. You send me a text, I make notes and then we have some discussion on your vision.

It's always okay to seek guidance from the locals! You are not "guilty" when you admit you don't know! How can you know if you don't ask?? You can't imagine what relief and "πάλι καλά!!!" I read/see from other Greeks when I tell them another foreigner is using me for cultural sensitivity? Greeks want you to seek help and will NOT shame you for it!

(On the contrary, you have no idea how many eye-rolls Greeks do when they see a blatantly wrong thing in a story... Which has happened pretty often for many years now. Can we do better as an industry?? Please???)

You can send me a personal message to share your story, or ask what this whole cultural sensitivity thing is all about, or ask about what I have done so far and how I can help. But for the love of all that's good, don't let your story be another "generic greek myth retelling"! And don't let others sell you their generic greek myth retellings!!

^^^^^^^ All of this.

There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.

Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.

Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.

Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.

In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.

(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)

A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.

Either she

has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or

she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."

If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.

@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.

@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.

This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

I had an epiphany

about Shrek 2.

And its groundbreaking character-development-foreshadowing.

We all remember ‘Accidentally in love’, the opening song, where our newlywed protagonists are having the time of their lives

There’s this lyric in the first verse:

How much longer will it take to cure this? Just to cure it, 'cause I can't ignore it if it's love (love) Makes me wanna turn around and face me

HMMMMM WHERE HAVE I HEARD THAT 

OH I KNOW

Much later in the movie, when Shrek has turned human and is returning to the castle, determined to change for the woman he loves, and ‘Changes’ plays in the background

AND WE HEAR THIS:

Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes                                                                                      Turn and face the strange

AND THIS (although this verse isn’t in the movie but it’s still IN THE SONG):

Every time I thought I'd got it made It seemed the taste was not so sweet So I turned myself to face me But I've never caught a glimpse

Different answers you can give to “there shouldn't be people of color playing the gods in Percy Jackson since they were Greek”.

Broke: The gods can be played by people of any race because they're not real.

Woke: The gods can be played by people of any race as, because they're not human, we have never been able to see them in their true forms. We would burst into flames if we did. The depiction we see of them in statues was done in the image of the models that posed for them. Also race politics weren't the same in Ancient times as they are know, especially in the USA. Some territories that are know considered Middle Eastern were considered Hellenic back them and they worshiped these gods. Because of this, artists and worshipers of these regions imagined the gods in their image, just like we nowadays can see depictions of Jesus in different races.

Now let's discuss why Hollywood loves to cast Central or Northern European descent actors to play Mediterranean humans and demigods such as Hector or Achilles.

No for real, at this point I'm more willing to believe that she somehow got her bachelor's and master's in Classics without having read the Odyssey and the Iliad, than her having read the Odyssey and the Iliad once in her life

Or maybe she read it once at five years old and thought it was enough

Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.

Oh neat..

However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.

That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.

Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.

they are talking business and totally not enjoying each other's company *exaggerated wink*

Drew this back when that trailer dropped and never posted it lmao

It was supposed to continue but I lost motivation so I’m posting it now as it is. If I ever draw more crossover shenanigans I’ll just add it in a reblog

I put Musical Lydia in the Brazilian costume because it fucking rocks